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Wednesday, August 30, 2006

The Debate Roars On.....

In the name of political correctness, and to assure that we don't hurt anyone's feelings, the left wing refuses to accept the use of criminal profiling in either domestic criminal investigations or national security operations. Please pause a moment, reflect back and take the following multiple choice test. The events are real. So are the answers highlighted in red.

Do you remember?

1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by?
a. Superman?
b. Jay Leno?
c. Harry Potter?
d. a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40?

2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by?
a. Olga Corbett?
b. Sitting Bull?
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 ?

3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:?
a. Lost Norwegians?
b. Elvis?
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:?
a. John Dillinger?
b. The King of Sweden ?
c. The Boy Scouts?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:?
a. A pizza delivery boy?
b. Pee Wee Herman?
c. Geraldo Rivera?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:?
a. The Smurfs?
b. Davey Jones?
c. The Little Mermaid?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:?
a. Captain Kidd?
b. Charles Lindberg?
c. Mother Teresa?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:?
a. Scooby Doo?
b. The Tooth Fairy and The Sundance Kid?
c. Spongebob Squarepants
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:?
a. Richard Simmons?
b. Grandma Moses?
c. Michael Jordan?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

10. In 1996, American military personnel were killed in a bomb attack at the Khobar Towers that was committed by?
a. Santa Claus
b. 12 year old children
c. Anti-abortionists
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

11. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:?
a. Mr. Rogers?
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems?
c. The World Wrestling Federation?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

12. In 2000, the U.S.S. Cole was bombed by?
b. KKK
c. GOP
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles
to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:?
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd?
b. The Supreme Court of Florida ?
c. Mr. Bean?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

14. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:?
a. Enron?
b. The Lutheran Church ?
c. The NFL?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

15. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:?
a. Bonnie and Clyde ?
b. Captain Kangaroo?
c. Billy Graham?
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

16. In 2004, trains in Madrid were bombed by?
a. Italian Mafia
b. Japanese Mafia
c. Insane Clown Posse
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

17. In 2005, a bombing in Bali that killed 300 was committed by?
a. Baptists
b. Methodists
c. Catholics
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

18. In 2005, buses and subway cars in London were bombed by?
a. Irish Catholics
b. Militant Buddhists
c. Scientologists
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40?

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

21 Posts From Readers:

The Future Was Yesterday said...

On this, we agree. Racial profiling is a must - not only for military (national) security, but "everyday" security as well. To carefully watch the cats when the same dog has bitten you ten times in a row is utterly stupid. When I lived in Michigan, a huge uproar grew over alleged "racial profiling." It seems our prisons were filled with blacks, and far fewer whites. Everybody ignored the fact that blacks overwhelmingly committed the crimes in that particular area. As one black police officer with whom I'd been good friends for years put it; "I've got to arrest a bunch of white boys so it doesn't look like I'm racially profiling. Go get your buddies and shoot a few folks for me, ok?" Obviously he was joking.....but that's how crazy it got.

The Beltway B@stard said...

Robert - we need to get some people over here to disagree with you. All this love and support is just wrong. You already know how I feel, in that I completely agree also.

Laurie said...

Why when we stick it to brown people it's called "racial profiling," but when we do it to black people it's called "racism"? I for one don't want to be "racially profiled" because a whole bunch of stupid white people went out and acted a donkey last night.

Anonymous said...

Right! And don’t forget:
-- 1978–1995: The Unabomber kills three and injures 29 in a string of anti-technology bombings.
-- 1981: John Hinckley shoots U.S. President Ronald Reagan.
-- 1995: the single largest terror-related death toll in the U.S. before 9/11: Tim McVeigh’s Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 that killed 168 people.

Oh, wait! Those weren’t committed by Muslims. Nor were these:

** 1970 **
-- 24 August: the Army Mathematics Research Center on the University of Wisconsin campus is blown up; one dies
-- 6 September: Coordinated hijacking of four airliners. One hijacking is foiled in midair and two planes are diverted to Jordan’s Dawson Field. Nicaraguan hijacker Sandinista Patrick Arguello was killed and all passengers were freed after negotiated release of captured hijacker Leila Khaled and three PFLP prisoners. The following day a fifth airplane was also hijacked.
-- October 5 – 17: October Crisis (Quebec): FLQ murder of Pierre Laporte, kidnapping of James Cross.

** 1971 **
-- 4 December: In the McGurk's Bar bombing, a UVF bomb in Belfast's North Queen Street kills 15 people.

** 1972
-- 22 February: The Official Irish Republican Army kills seven civilians in the Aldershot bombing.
-- 30 May: Lod Airport Massacre by the Japanese Red Army terrorists, killing 26 and injuring 78.
-- 21 July: Bloody Friday nine are killed and 130 injured as Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) sets off 22 bombs.
-- 31 July: Claudy bombings; the Provisional Irish Republican Army sets off three car bombs in Claudy killing nine.

-- 20 December: In Operación Ogro, Basque ETA group kills Spanish Prime Minister Admiral Carrero Blanco bombing his car in Madrid.

** 1974
-- 4 February: Twelve people are killed by the IRA in the M62 Coach Bombing.
-- 17 May: UVF detonates 3 car bombs in Dublin and one in Monaghan; 33 dead – the deadliest toll of any one day in Ireland's 'Troubles'.
-- 4 August: Italicus Expressen between Roma and Brennero explodes, killing 12 and injuring 44. Attributed to far-right terrorism.
-- 13 September: Basque ETA group bombs the "Rolando" cafeteria in Madrid and kills 12.
-- 30 September: Chilean General Carlos Prats is victim of a car bombing in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
-- 5 October: Guildford pub bombing by the IRA leaves five dead and 44 injured.
-- 21 November: Birmingham pub bombing by the IRA kills 21, 182 people are injured.

** 1975 **
-- 26 February: London police officer Stephen Tibble, 22, is shot dead as he chases an PIRA gunman escaping from a bomb factory.
-- 31 July: Three members of Ireland's popular Miami Showband killed in UVF gun attack.
-- December 1975: Carlos the Jackal and his rebels attack OPEC headquarters in Vienna, Austria and take over 60 hostages - mostly they were OPEC countries' leaders.

** 1976 **
-- 3 February: Somali Coast Liberation Front hijack a school bus in Djibouti, killing one girl.
-- 16 February: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia assassinate Turkish diplomat Oktay Cerit in Paris.
-- 21 September: Orlando Letelier assassinated in Washington by Chilean government.
-- 6 October: Cubana Flight 455 was bombed by anti-Castro exiles while flying from Barbados to Havana, killing 73.

** 1977 **
-- 7 April: Federal Prosecutor Siegfried Buback and his driver were shot by two Red Army Faction members.
-- 23 May: In the Netherlands, RMS activists kept 105 children and 5 teachers hostage in a school in Smilde.
-- 11 June: In the Netherlands, near Groningen, a passenger train was hijacked by members of the RMS, 55 passengers were kept hostage. In an army attack six hijackers and two passengers were killed.
-- 30 July: Jürgen Ponto, then head of the Dresdner Bank, was shot and killed by the Red Army Faction in a failed kidnapping.
-- 5 September: Hanns Martin Schleyer was kidnapped by the Red Army Faction. He was executed by the Red Army Faction on 19 October 1977.

** 1978 **
-- 13 February: Hilton bombing: A bomb is detonated outside the CHOGM meeting in Sydney, Australia, killing 2 people. 3 Ananda Marga members are later arrested and jailed for the attack, but later released due to lack of proof.
-- 17 February: The IRA kill 12 people in the La Mon Restaurant Bombing.
-- March: In the Netherlands members of the RMS movement occupy a provincial office in Assen. 67 persons were held hostage, one official was killed on the spot, another died of injuries a month later.
-- 16 March – 9 May: The Red Brigade kidnap Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro and assassinate him 55 days later.

** 1979 **
-- 29 July: Basque ETA members bomb two railway stations in Madrid, killing 7.
-- 27 August: Lord Mountbatten and three others are killed by IRA bomb on board his boat off Mullaghmore. The same day two IRA bombs kill 18 British Soldiers near Warrenpoint. After the explosions a heavy gun battle ensued between the Soldiers and the Bombers firing from their position inside the border with the Republic of Ireland. One civilian was caught in the crossfire and killed.

** 1980 **
-- 27 February: Dominican embassy siege: Guerrillas from M-19 take diplomats hostage at the Dominican embassy in Bogotá, Colombia. After 61 days, all are released on 27 April.
-- 24 March: Archbishop Óscar Romero assassinated by death squads in El Salvador.
-- 2 August: Strage di Bologna: A terrorist bombing at the railway station in Bologna, Italy kills 85 people and wounds more than 200.

** 1982 **
-- 29 March: A bomb on board the Paris-Toulouse train, kills 5 injures 27. Carlos usually assumed to be responsible.
-- 20 July: The Hyde Park and Regents Park bombings in London by the IRA kill eleven members of the Household Cavalry and the Royal Green Jackets.
-- 7 August: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia set off a bomb in Ankara airport, killing 9 people and wounding 70.
-- 14 October: Direct Action bombs a Litton Industries factory.
-- 6 December: Ballykelly disco bombing in which Irish National Liberation Army kills seventeen civilians and soldiers in Northern Ireland.

** 1983 **
-- 15 July: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia bombed a Turkish airline counter in the Orly Airport, killing eight people and wounding over 50.
-- 9 October: Rangoon bombing by North Koreans targets South Korean President Chun Doo Hwan, killing 21 persons and injuring 48.
-- 17 December: Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store.
-- 31 December: On the way to New Year's Eve 7 persons are killed and 70 wounded by bombs on the Marseille to Paris TGV and at the St-Charles station in Marseille. The attack is attributed to Carlos on behalf of the O.L.A.

** 1984 **
-- 12 October: Brighton hotel bombing by the IRA: 5 are killed in an attempt to kill members of the British cabinet.
-- 31 October: Indian prime minister Indira Gandhi assassinated by her Sikh bodyguards.

Etc., etc.

Robert said...

I have to stop the anonymous postings. My mon and dad always told me that if I had something to say, then be proud enough to let everyone know who you are.

Anon, you did nothing but prove my point. Of the items you listed, there are 13 separate groups, from different countries, who committed political terrorism. There was no uniformity of victims, i.e., the continous attacks on westerners by an ideology.

The IRA wanted the Brits out of Ireland, the LTTE wants independence, and many of the examples you listed are not terorrism, but political assasinations. They are not the same thing.

My examples deal with who has attacked the US. The IRA never attacked the US, neither has ETA, FLQ, LTTE, FARP, RMS, PFLP, RAF....understand?

However, muslim extremists, almost exclusively al-Qaeda since 1991, can be blamed for every terrorist attack on the US other than the OKC bombing. Apples and Orange.....

Robert said...

Ok, small correction. A couple of the examples I listed were not directly related to US interests.

My point still stands. Of all the groups that have attacked the US, they all are Islamic and have a jihad/fatwah against the US specifically.

Another contrast to the two lists are the aims of the organizations. The IRA and LTTE, for example, have political positions that negotiation and/or compromise can settle to the benefit of both sides. Not so with the aims of Islamic extremists. They desire no territory or political representation, only the death of Americans and the collapse of the government.

Nicho said...

Actually, Robert, I believe the point that Anon was trying to make was that none of the incidents he mentioned were committed by "Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40". Yet you subtlely altered your argument to, "There was no uniformity of victims, i.e., the continous attacks on westerners by an ideology." Very slick - you learned well from Rove. It didn't prove your point - it was quite devastating to it - so you changed your point.

To be blunt, racial profiling wouldn't have helped in the Oklahoma City bombing, unless you were profiling on "Clinton-hating psychopathic white male" .

Robert said...

Nicho, you guys are still missing it.

None of the attacks Anon posted were attacks on the US. He is varying from the original post which was profiling terrorists in America.

My argument is unchanged. To glance at his post one might see a long list of terrorist attacks committed by non-muslims. I am simply countering the assertion that those examples fit into an argument for profiling.

I agree that profiling would not have stopped McVeigh. I will point out that that was not a situation where profiling was even an option. Criminal profiling comes into play during investigations, or as we are discussin here, national security issues of screening as in airports, or screening for visas, etc.

Laurie, you have to follow the whole argument. We are not talking about racial profiling. We are talking about using race as a part of CRIMINAL PROFILING. It is not the same thing.

Nicho said...

The counter to this profiling argument is that it oversimplifies investigations. In fact, by certering your profiling on, say, Arab-Americans, you're hindering (or perhaps "Hinderaking") your own efforts by casting a small net on a majority of innocent people.

I'm not saying do away with it altogether, but I am saying that there is some merit to limiting this tactic. Of course you're going to find a bunch of bad apples in a barrel...but what happens when you're only looking at one barrel versus the dozen or so others surrounding you?

Nicho said...

(forgot to add)
Robert: None of the attacks Anon posted were attacks on the US.

So where is the Universtiy of Wisconsin again? Was the Unibomber rampant in Switzerland? Oklahoma City is in Zambia? Did Reagan get shot in the ass in Mexico City?

Ellie said...

I agree with nicho on this one. if something happens its not necessarily a muslim who committed the crime. If I'm walking across the street to the bus stop after work today and someone hits me and steals my purse its not necessarily going to be a male between the ages of 17 and 40. just the way anonymous said that there were other attacks committed that weren't by muslims. in our society people are too willing to scream that the muslims are guilty and don't look at the whole broad scope. true, muslims are more likely to be terrorists, but that certainly doesn't mean that all of them are bad people.

Robert said...

Guys, focus in on a couple of things. The working definiton of terrorism is "Violence or the threat of violence in an attempt to coerce a government or a sector of the population, to make political changes." (There are several definitions of terrorism, but this one is paraphrased from the FBI)

Reagan's shooting was not terrorism, anymore than the robbery at the local stop n' rob is terrorism. The wisconsin thing? I don't think it was attributed to a group, and could have been a fraternity, who knows?

Unibomber...he bombed things because he hated technology. But I will concede for this discussion that it was terrorism. And I have never said that OKC was anything but terrorism.

We aren't talking about crimes. We are talking about terrorism. No one ever said that EVERY muslim male was a terrorist. But in EVERY instance of international terrorism aimed at the US, EVERY terrorist was muslim.

That is the whole point of CRIMINAL profiling versus racial profiling. It is the use of race, within the totality of the circumstances, that will have us look more closely at those who merit the attention.

Nicho, I never said ignore anyone else. Take an airport for example. We should continue to screen passengers the same way we do now. Grandma should have her luggage examined for dangerous items. But we should also mark muslim males between 17=40 who have traveled repeatedly between Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, and the US for an additional check. It happens to me on a random basis when I fly. Why not spend the random time looking at those who pose the greatest threats?

We should lok at ALL the apples in the barrel. But when we have reason to believe that one of them is bad, we should look at it more closely so that we don't leave it with the other ones.

Nicho said...

Robert: But we should also mark muslim males between 17=40 who have traveled repeatedly between Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, and the US for an additional check. It happens to me on a random basis when I fly. Why not spend the random time looking at those who pose the greatest threats?

We should lok at ALL the apples in the barrel. But when we have reason to believe that one of them is bad, we should look at it more closely so that we don't leave it with the other ones.

So how does one spot a Muslim? I happen to work with two Muslim women; both of them Somali refugees. One adheres to the practice of wearing a head scarf but the other does not and dresses very much like any other American woman. Both of them are still very devoted followers of Mohammed (even passing on ham for sandwiches which leaves me feeling sorry for them). But in an airport, I doubt you'd be able to pick them both out 100% as Muslim. I also know Asian Muslims. Could you spot them?

Hypothetical: Put yourself in this're an Arab Muslim trained in the al Qaeda camps of pre-9/11 Afghanistan. Would you dress as Allah desires and risk being exposed, or would you shave your face clean, don some Levis and a polo shirt and talk about the latest issue of Maxim magazine with the American infidel?

I understand the point you're trying to make. However I don't think you're seeing mine. I'm all about random bag checks and have slowly gotten over feeling sorry for anyone who must be in the presense of me removing my shoes at the airport. It really doesn't bother me. But your original post, which I suspect was something that was received in email, it doesn't spell any of the details you've enumerated in the comments section.

It's like the bumper sticker's too simplified an argument to make.

Ellie said...

just hypothetically, what if a Muslim male was trained in an al-Qaeda training camp when he was young and then came to america, rejected his faith, and became an evangelical christian, or converted to some other religion. should he be searched as well?

now, I see your point robert and I know what I just said is kinda ridiculous. And I think that all people should be searched. However, muslims are not the only ones who commit crimes. as well as the fact that not all muslims are terrorists. everything is possible and we must be considerate of the fact that there are good muslims out there. we can't stereotype and profile muslims just because a few of them are bad.

Robert said...

Yes we can, and we should. Can you not understand the difference between using race exclusively and using race as a factor/

Or are you one of those people who think that a description of a criminal shouldn't include race?

Robert said...

And everything IS is just that some things are more PROBABLE.

The Beltway B@stard said...

Does this tree hugging lefty actually have to come to your defense? ;)

Just kidding - I support your view - you know why, I'll leave it at that. Just haven't been in the debating mood lately anyway.

OK, off to pull the fools who drove thourgh standing water courtesy of Ernesto, out of their cars - or that is watch as they are pulled from their cars.

Robert said...

LOL...light a smoke and enjoy the

Understood about the agreement. You don;t have o come to my defense, but you can tell me how I can get through to them...apparently I am not as articulate or as on point as I thought

TM said...

Robert, Sirhan Sirhan was not a Muslim. He was actually a Christian.

However, that does not invalidate the point you are trying to make.

If you want, I can provide a link to support my claim.


"So how does one spot a Muslim?"

Looking at the name on their identity card is the first step. It isn't a 100% guarantee. But then again, nothing is. But this isn't about getting 100% proof. This is about looking at the totality of the circumstances.

Very respectfully,


The Beltway B@stard said...

It comes down to this - I've seen so much crap in my life, that I can tell you with a high percentage of reliability; the age, gender and probably ethnicity of the person who perpetrated a particular crime.

I have stated before that I loath racial profiling in any form - but it's a fact of life in the law enforcement community, like it or not. If you are within an ethnic group known to perpetrate a common activity, you are going to be targeted.

Is it right? No, not always, and there are cases of abuse. Does it work? Yes, in more instances than the media would have anyone believe, being they are looking to stir the pot for ratings, rather than the real reason behind the activity.

There you go Robert - defense with a dash of disagreement.

Robert said...


BB, people in general just don't like to admit the truth of what you said. They believe that somehow it is detrimental to a society to actually say that a particular group commits particular crimes. They want effective policing, but they don't want th police to use all the tools available. They want to be safe, but not hurt someone's feelings in the process.

Nicho, I should have mentioned this earlier. When dealing with names from Muslim countries, one can tell by the name itself what country they are from. Someone named John Smith could be from a dozen countries. Names from the countries in question are very particular.

I personally could care less if we profiled every Muslim person there is. No one said they would be tossed into prison because they are muslim, they just might have to take two extra minutes at an airport. I say Tough S***.

Welcome back, TM! I suspect you only post when you have a work-release pass....LOL.

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